Accidents et Incidents aériens
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gazetchaleur
Inscrit le 15/06/2007 |
# 26 juillet 2008 22:50 | |
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xmadflyer
Inscrit le 02/03/2008 |
# 26 juillet 2008 23:00 | |
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Ce que votre œil a vu est confirmé par ceci : http://www.jetphotos.net/census/aircraf ... =747-25067 (Message édité par xmadflyer le 27/07/2008 00h32) |
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Gaia
Inscrit le 20/05/2008 |
# 27 juillet 2008 00:18 | |
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Pour TRIM2 Je vois à nouveau que le site Aeroweb, site public aéronautique, est phagocyté par les « PRO », enfin certains qui se disent être « PRO » et qui ne peuvent s’empêcher de donner des leçons. Tout d’abord, il y a eu Eolien777 qui appelait les pilotes « PRO » à la rescousse, dès qu’il se sentait en mauvaise posture sur le forum. Grand donneur de leçons à ses heures mais ….. quoi de plus ….. ? Maintenant, il y a TRIM 2 qui, soit dit en passant, n’est pas intervenu énormément depuis son inscription en avril 2007. Monsieur l’ingénieur nous dénigre (nous les membres) par sa suffisance, son arrogance, son effronterie et son impertinence, « Celle des 'jeunes', qui, quand ils n'ont pas appris les règles de base, disent ( ou s'interrogent..)plus moins n'mporte quoi. » sic Il nous demande aussi de « reprendre les bases ». sic Il se classe dans « Celle des ' matures' ( éduqués..). » sic Tel un professeur, il dit aussi « J'attends les réactions concernant le mouvement des fluides, soumis à des une pression differentielle entre deux enceintes closes . » sic Vous pourrez voir, comme moi, que les citations de TRIM2 sont retranscrites, telles qu’il les a inscrites sur le forum. Les fautes d’orthographe, de français, de syntaxe n’ont pas été rectifiées. Monsieur l’ingénieur, j’aimerais vous dire que : 1. Vous n’êtes pas sur un forum réservé aux ingénieurs ni même aux pilotes professionnels. Il en existe ! Peut-être ne vous sentez-vous pas au niveau pour y participer ? 2. Bien des intervenants réguliers et assidus vous donnent des leçons de modestie. Chaque jour, par leurs contributions techniques détaillées, étayées et complétées par des liens, (vous n’en citez jamais puisque vous êtes omniscient) ils font vivre ce forum. Vous n’apparaissez que dans le rôle de celui qui s’érige « en Juge de ce qui est techniquement vrai ou faux ». Comme vous êtes « ingé » vous seul semblez détenir la vérité. 3. Quand à rehausser le niveau ……. Lequel ? Le Vôtre ?... Je pense qu’il ne demande qu’à être rehaussé en commençant par vous. Relisez-vous donc !... Le niveau remontera peut-être si vous vous apercevez du vôtre. 4. Vous me rappelez par trop « les ingés » comme vous le dites. Heureusement, il m’arrive d’en consulter qui sont moins obtus. Ne vous méprenez pas, je n’interviens pas en « donneuse de leçons ». Je pense simplement que vous allez beaucoup trop loin, Monsieur l’ingénieur. Voyez-vous, je suis souvent amenée à prendre des décisions collégiales, dans un domaine qui est proche de ce qui fût le vôtre. Vous étiez « ingé » j’en suis fort aise, vous l’êtes resté, cela ne m’étonne guère. Vous étiez certainement bon dans votre domaine professionnel, mais quel manque de tact, de courtoisie et de diplomatie… Soit dit en passant, si vous vous étiez donné la peine d’aller contrôler sur internet, vos entendus radiophoniques, vous auriez su, rapidement, que l’avion dont il est question était bien un BOEING 747-438 à moteurs RR. Ou alors, il suffisait de suivre les différents liens qui vous étaient indiqués par Béochien, Sevrien, Xmadflyer. Mais, une question me vient à l’esprit : « Quel effet cela fait-il d’être pris pour un imbécile ? » Gaïa Paris (Message édité par Gaia le 27/07/2008 00h26) |
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Beochien
Inscrit le 13/02/2007 |
# 27 juillet 2008 00:47 | |
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Ho Ho ! Pas sérieux ça !! Un peu dramatisé ... mais .. Les masques à O2, c'était loin d'être à 100 % Pas sérieux Quantas !!  Et ... les autres ???? ------------------Extraits ----------------- http://www.theage.com.au/national/oxyge ... -3lem.html St Kilda architect David Saunders described the moments after the explosion as utter panic. "The oxygen masks were f----d," Mr Saunders told The Sunday Age at Melbourne International Airport, after an emotional reunion with his mother and sister. "The elastic was so old that it had deteriorated … I was trying to get my passport, and every time I got my passport the mask fell off and I started to pass out." In some parts of the cabin, the masks didn't drop down at all: "A guy just went into a panic and smashed the whole panel off the ceiling to get to the mask. "The kids were screaming and flailing … Their cheeks and lips were turning blue from lack of oxygen." Another passenger, Paula Madejon, said she had to share her mask with two other people, and, in the row behind her, nobody had a mask. _________________ JPRS |
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Beochien
Inscrit le 13/02/2007 |
# 27 juillet 2008 01:25 | |
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Bonsoir Pas de corrosion .. à première vue, bien sûr ! ----------------- L'article --------------------- http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/07/26/qantas.html No corrosion found near torn Qantas fuselage, airline says Last Updated: Saturday, July 26, 2008 | 10:44 AM ET CBC News Officials at the Australian airline Qantas say no corrosion was found in the area surrounding three-metre hole in the side of one of its passenger jets. Part of the fuselage opened in mid-flight on Friday, causing rapid decompression in the plane and forcing the pilots to make an emergency landing in Manila. The Boeing 747-400, travelling from London to Melbourne, was diverted half an hour after a stopover in Hong Kong. An initial investigation concluded that a section of the fuselage separated in the forward cargo compartment, the Australian Transport Safety Bureau said in a written statement shortly after the jet landed safely in Manila. "Our preliminary checks on this indicate that there was no corrosion anywhere near where this hole occurred in the aircraft," Qantas chief executive officer Geoff Dixon said on Saturday. -------------- L'article --------------- _________________ JPRS |
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Beochien
Inscrit le 13/02/2007 |
# 27 juillet 2008 03:16 | |
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Juste un rappel 2007 !! Quantas ... pas terribles quant au management de leurs bouteilles d'O2 !! Et en plus, en grève tous azimuth ... Et ... le rack de bouteilles d'O2 est proche de l'endroit ... soufflé !! plusieurs fois que je l'ai vu commenté .. Bon juste une idée .... --------- Extrait incident O2 en 2007 ---------------- http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ ... 32267.html Probe after Qantas pumps wrong gas into jets POTENTIALLY fatal gas being pumped into passenger jet emergency oxygen tanks in Australia has sparked a worldwide safety investigation. The Australian Safety Transport Bureau confirmed yesterday that Qantas engineers accidentally put nitrogen into the emergency oxygen tanks of a Boeing 747 passenger jet at Melbourne Airport. The Australian carrier immediately checked the oxygen supplies of more than 50 of its planes that had been serviced by the mislabelled nitrogen cart at the airport. But an aviation source said: "This could have affected hundreds of planes worldwide. Any international jet that passed through Melbourne and was serviced by Qantas could have had nitrogen pumped into its oxygen tanks." Health experts warned that in an emergency the effects of nitrogen in the oxygen tanks could have potentially fatal results. Dr Ian Millar, hyperbaric medicine unit director at The Alfred hospital, said: "If there was an emergency and the pilot took nitrogen instead of oxygen, instead of gaining control of the aircraft he would black out and it would be all over. It's a pretty serious mistake." Nitrogen, which is non-flammable, is commonly used at airports to fill aircraft tyres. The aviation source said: "Qantas took delivery of the new nitrogen cart 10 months ago. It looked exactly like the old oxygen cart. When the attachments did not fit they went and took them off the old oxygen cart and started using it." The mistake was eventually spotted by an aircraft engineer. "He was walking around the plane and asked what they were doing. When they said they were topping up the oxygen, he said, 'No you're not, that's a nitrogen cart'," said the source. The incident was reported to the Civil Aviation Safety Bureau, which confirmed that an investigation detected nitrogen in the crew oxygen tanks on the Boeing 747-300. A bureau spokeswoman said it was a one-off incident. But the aviation source said: "This has affected at least 175 planes and Qantas has had to tell any other airline that has been serviced in Melbourne to check out its oxygen supplies." -------------------- Et pour info ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_oxygen_system JPRS Paris _________________ JPRS |
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Beochien
Inscrit le 13/02/2007 |
# 27 juillet 2008 03:43 | |
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Bonne nuit ... Parmi les hypothéses ...Le rack de bouteilles O2 Un article du times on line ... Noter que qq milligramme de graisse carbonée au niveau du robinet, ou qq gouttes d'huile (inappropriées et interdites !) peuvent démarrer un feu spontanément dans une bouteille d'oxygène, à 2 ou 300 bars, lequel s'alimente du propre métal (Le coup de la lance thermique !!) et se termine par le décolletage explosif de la bouteille, dans la zone du robinet en général, transformant le tout en un obus de plusieurs kilos, et le restant dela bouteille en torpille, sans parler de la détente quasi explosive du gaz !! Je connais !! Pour ce qui est de l'impact du fret ... je n'y crois guère ... mais qui sait, il y avait peut être un mamouth en colère dans la soute ... ---------- L'article -------------------- http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 384017.ece Qantas jet drama ‘due to oxygen explosion’ A fault in the pilots’ emergency supply could have caused the near-disaster Steven Swinford and Paul Eddy INVESTIGATORS are focusing on the possibility that exploding oxygen tanks were responsible for blowing a gaping hole in the fuselage of a Qantas Boeing 747 plane at 29,000ft. A team from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau has found debris scattered through the cargo hold from two oxygen tanks holding a two-hour emergency supply for the pilots. The roof above them appears to have been pushed up by the force of an explosion. Investigators are working on the theory that the explosion was caused by impact from loose cargo or the corrosion of the tanks themselves. A source close to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) in Australia said: “It is looking extremely likely that one or more of the oxygen tanks exploded. It’s never happened before so nobody knows what caused it. It could be as simple as some cargo shifting and smashing into it, which shouldn’t be able to happen.” The investigators added, however, that it is too early to discount metal fatigue, whereby the fuselage is weakened over time by the expansion and contraction of the plane during take-off and landing. This creates tiny cracks in the fuselage which are invisible to the eye, but which can eventually give way. Flight QF30 from London to Melbourne was an hour into its leg from Hong Kong to Melbourne on Friday morning when a gaping hole appeared in the front right side of the plane. Part of the ceiling in the passenger cabin collapsed, some of the flooring gave way and debris flew across the first class section. Some passengers recorded the drama on their mobile phones. Footage showed passengers sitting with their oxygen masks on as the 19-strong crew continued to serve food, showing no sign of panic. Captain John Francis Bartels, a former pilot with the Royal Australian Navy, managed to put the aircraft into an emergency descent from 29,000ft to 10,000ft where the passengers and crew could breathe without oxygen. He landed at Manila airport in the Philippines an hour later. Investigators are analysing debris in the cargo hold from the two oxygen tanks. The tanks were bolted to the walls of the hold near where the fuselage ruptured. There were unconfirmed reports last night that the pilots had experienced difficulties with their oxygen supply as they made their descent. They have a backup in the cockpit in the event of the main supply failing. According to Bill Hamilton, a former pilot who flew Qantas 747s for seven years, the bottles are made of toughened aluminium or carbon fibre and would have been difficult to break. He believes corrosion could have caused the tanks to rupture. “There’s a saying in the engineering field that if you don’t find corrosion you are not looking hard enough. The structural failures I’ve heard of in the past have been corrosion-related or damage-related and because of inferior repairs,” he said. As well as the debris, investigators also found that the floor above the tanks had been pushed upwards, which is more consistent with an explosion. The CASA source said: “In a normal depressurisation, if a fuselage had metal fatigue and a hole was suddenly ripped in it, everything would be sucked down and out. But in fact the floor above the bottles has been blown upwards, which is more consistent with an explosion.” Geoff Dixon, chief executive of Qantas, denied that corrosion caused the hole. According to the CASA, corrosion was identified during a month-long maintenance check in February, but the damage was minor and further back in the plane. It had previously undergone a more thorough check in 2004. Although the plane is 17 years old, it is still considered relatively young by aviation experts because long-haul aircraft make relatively few take-offs and landings, which put strain on the fuselage. If the oxygen tanks are to blame, the repercussions for the rest of the 700-strong fleet of 747-400s are likely to be limited. Most do not carry the large tanks used on flight QF30, which are standard issue on planes whose path takes them over the Himalayas. They need larger supplies before a plane can be sure of dropping to a safe altitude of 10,000ft. The majority of 747-400s in service use chemical oxygen generators, which are less volatile. Explosive decompressions such as that suffered by the Qantas jet are rare, with about 20 incidents in the history of commercial aviation. The most recent took place in 1989, when nine people died on a United Airlines 747-122 when the cargo door blew out after it left Hawaii for Australia. Qantas has never lost a jet aircraft to an accident. Its record was emphasised in the 1988 movie Rain Man, where an autistic character played by Dustin Hoffman insists on flying with the airline. The delayed passengers finally arrived in Melbourne yesterday. For Jane and Dermot Charlton, from Fareham in Hampshire, QF30 had been their first flight. “It was a real good adventure and certainly very interesting, but three days to get here is a very long time,” said Dermot. (Message édité par Beochien le 27/07/2008 03h46) _________________ JPRS |
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Raslespaquerettes
Inscrit le 06/07/2008 |
# 27 juillet 2008 05:14 | |
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Après la période des tontons flingueurs ( film avec dialogues de Michel Audiard) voilà maintenant, la tata filngueuse . On vit une époque formidable. Selon le slogan d'un journal lili ( libéral-libertaire) d'il y a 40 ans. Bienvenue au club, divinité de la Terre. (Message édité par Hal900 le 27/07/2008 05h15) (Message édité par Hal900 le 27/07/2008 08h52) |
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sevrien
Inscrit le 08/08/2006 |
# 27 juillet 2008 07:46 | |
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Merci, Xmadflyer ! Il n'y a qu'un point qui me titille ! Et il n'est pas très important ! Il me semble (mais je peux me tromper) que les moteurs sont bien des RR RB211-524-H/T, et non pas des G. A l'origine, lors de la livraison, le B747-400 en question fut équipé de "............G". Mais, il me semble que Qantas avait, tout comme BA et les autres, opté pour le rétrofit de la technologie Trent : Pour celles & ceux que cela intéresse. -- (Source RR : "The Trent family has a direct line of heritage to the RB211 engine series which pioneered the three-shaft design philosophy unique to Rolls-Royce. As the Trent has extended its family line, the practical benefits of the three-shaft approach to large engines have becomeclear better performance retention, shorter, more rugged powerplants, and lighter engines by significant margins over their two-shaft competitors..... -- Taking a common design approach to successive Trent variants meansa cost-effective solution to development programmes, with compressor and turbine systems scaled to meet requirements. Trent technologies have also been retrofitted to RB211-524 engines, resulting in longer on-wing lives and improved fuel burn. --------------------- -- NB : Airfinance Journal -Hybrid Trent engines have been ordered by all eight 747-400 Rolls-Royce customers, both for new deliveries and for retrofit to existing aircraft. ------------- -- Source RR : -- Incorporating Trent technology Through the Rolls-Royce concept of family designs, the RB211-524G/H was upgraded with 04 module HP (high pressure) technology developed on the Trent 700 engine family in 1997. In the RB211-524G/H-T the HP turbine system is designed to operate at Trent 700 temperatures that are significantly higher than the RB211-524. As a result of this, the engine is able to better retain its performance characteristics throughout its service life. The benefits of the -T on the Boeing 747-400 are: --2% lower fuel burn. --Longer lives on wing - through lower operating temperatures, increased margin and higher capability hardware in the core. --Lower weight over 200 lb per engine. --Lower emissions 40% lower NOx. --Lowest maintenance cost - through longer lives and better capability hardware. --Best performance retention. (Message édité par sevrien le 27/07/2008 07h47) |
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kaysersoeze
Inscrit le 24/08/2007 |
# 27 juillet 2008 10:15 | |
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incroyable: meme dans le forum accidents aeriens, Sevrien nous fait la pub des moteurs RR ! mais oui ! ils sont beaux ces moteurs ! tellement beaux qu'on ne voit même plus le trou dans la carlingue derrière !  |
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Beochien
Inscrit le 13/02/2007 |
# 27 juillet 2008 12:00 | |
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Bonjour La bouteille d'O2 point central des investigations pour le QF 30 !! Et pour tout arranger elle a disparu la bouteille ! Au fond de l'océan probablement, ça ne va pas aider les enquêteurs ! Bon .. Quantas et le management des bouteilles de gaz Pfff .. Je ne leur confierait pas la gestion de mon camping gaz à ces zèbres (Pardon, Kangourous) là !! ---------- L'Article BBC ................. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7527469.stm Jet probe turns to oxygen bottles Staff inspect damage under the aircraft Engineers have begun inspecting the damaged plane in Manila A possible oxygen cylinder blast is a main focus for investigators looking into what caused a hole mid-flight in the fuselage of a Qantas passenger jet. Investigator Neville Blyth said a cylinder was missing from the plane but it was "too early to say whether this was the cause of the explosion". Qantas has been told to inspect every oxygen bottle on its Boeing 747 fleet. The plane was flying to Melbourne when it had to make an emergency landing in the Philippines on Friday. Passengers reported a loud bang and then rapid decompression of the cabin. 'No evidence of explosives' "At this stage, there is no evidence whatsoever that this is a security-related event," Mr Blyth, a senior investigator from the Australian Transport and Safety Bureau, told a news conference in Manila. WHY QF30 DESCENDED 20,000FT Graphic Planes are pressurised as cruising altitudes are freezing and lack sufficient oxygen to breathe Hole causes decompression, rapidly reducing air pressure and risking exposure Oxygen masks are deployed and pilot makes emergency descent to breathable altitude What went wrong on the plane? "This is being treated as a safety investigation." Philippine bomb-sniffing dogs had gone through the cargo hold and found no indication of explosives, and there was no evidence of bomb residues, Mr Blyth said. He added: "It is too early to say whether this was the cause of the explosion, but one of the cylinders which provides back-up oxygen is missing." The initial inquiry is likely to take two to three days and a preliminary report on the findings should be released in two to three months, Mr Blyth said. Passengers described hearing a large bang and feeling a rush of wind and debris through the cabin about an hour after Flight QF30 left Hong Kong at 0900 local time (0100 GMT) on Friday. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau said the aircraft made an emergency descent from 29,000ft to 10,000ft before stabilising. It said initial information indicated that a section of the fuselage had separated in the area of the forward cargo compartment. JPRS Paris _________________ JPRS |
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Beochien
Inscrit le 13/02/2007 |
# 27 juillet 2008 14:30 | |
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Bonjour C'est re-parti chez Quantas pour les inspections des bouteilles d'oxygène !! Ordre de leur authorité (CASA) ----------------Extrait------------------ http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/27/asia/qantas.php Air safety authorities investigating the explosive decompression last week aboard a Qantas airliner have asked the operator to inspect the oxygen bottles carried on the rest of its fleet. The move by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority in Australia is the latest indication that investigators believe an exploding oxygen bottle was responsible for blowing a hole the size of a sedan in the side of the Boeing 747-438 as it flew at an altitude of 8,800 meters, or 29,000 feet, between Hong Kong and Melbourne. "We've asked Qantas to inspect all the rest of the oxygen bottles on their 747's," Peter Gibson, a spokesman for the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, said by telephone Sunday. David Cox, the general manager of engineering at Qantas, confirmed Sunday that the airline had started an inspection program, saying in a statement that it would be completed by Friday. JPRS Paris _________________ JPRS |
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sevrien
Inscrit le 08/08/2006 |
# 27 juillet 2008 16:38 | |
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Mais bien sûr ! Vous savez que ce serait de la mauvaise foi que de faire de la pub. pour GE ! Cela est actuellement impossible ! Et, compte tenu des problèmes que GE a créés pour toute l'industrie de l'aviation civile, avec ses malheurs sur CF-6, CF-34, GE90 etc., on m'accuserait de tous les maux de la terre, si je commençais à chercher trop de positif 'fictif' ou "contrived" en faveur de GE ! Aussi, je fais du "pro-actif"  ! Il y a toujours un poncho qui traine, qui n'a pas lu les posts du Forum, ...trop fatigué pour faire sa recherche, ....et susceptible de demander l'apport de la technologie du Trent à celle des RB211 d'origine ! Un peu d'info' & de pédagogie au passage, ... cela ne fait pas de mal ! C'est de l'info' ! Pas de la pub ! Tout le monde sait que RR n'a pas besoin de pub ! Les réalité et qualité de ses bonnes performances sont connues ! (Message édité par sevrien le 28/07/2008 16h46) |
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TRIM2
Inscrit le 29/04/2007 |
# 28 juillet 2008 08:06 | |
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Un détail sur les échanges de cet incident ( Q -747 ) Le fait qu'il soit équipé de moteurs GE ou RR, n'a eu en l'occurrence aucune importance. Dès la décompression cabine installée, le PNT a signalé que les 4 moteurs fonctionnaient et répondaient correctement, aiinsi que les gouvernes. Donc pas de problème en vue pour se poser a Manille. Le point crucial a été la décompression ( soute pressurisée ou pas..) Evidemment, elle était pressurisée, sinon, un trou dans la partie soute du fuselage n'aurait rien provoqué dans la cabine passagers. Cela a été compris par de nombreux membres ( je ne cite jamais de noms..sauf pour réponse ciblée..et je ne pique pas non plus de crises de nerfs.. ).Je suis surpris par ces incidents imputables ( au conditionnel) à Quantas, compagnie sérieuse, s'il en fut) Bonne journée TRIM2 (Message édité par TRIM2 le 28/07/2008 08h07) |
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sevrien
Inscrit le 08/08/2006 |
# 28 juillet 2008 11:26 | |
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Bonjour, TRIM2, et chers tous. Nous sommes tout à fait d'accord ! C'est le sens de ma remarque dans un de mes posts ci-dessus. Exact ! Pas de problème. Oui ! La soute était pressurisée ! C'est comme ça, et pas autrement ! Oui, ... pour Qantas, ... c'est une affaire surprenante ! Il faut attendre la suite. (Message édité par sevrien le 28/07/2008 17h01) |
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